Passing at the track

[shmike]

Originally Posted by DLIT

You have to be predictable and hold your lines. You're not racing. A big thing I've seen is noobs kinda late-apexing a corner and coming close to hitting others on the right line. If you're wide, stay wide. Don't shoot in in hopes to catch the apex at the last second. Decreasing radius corners exempt. You can assume a person will swing it in late in a decreasing radius.

This post is the exact reason why inside passing is not allowed for certain groups.

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by Sean

Some orgs here have a no inside passing rule, which is stupid IMO and it makes it a bitch to get around someone that isn't courteous. The key is to get up to A group so you can pass them wherever you want.

EDIT: I am talking about intermediate and advanced groups here... novice groups I think stricter passing rules do make sense obviously. Also, I am not taking a dig at Tony who I just noticed posted above (Hi Tony) and whose track days I did many of when I was starting out. I am merely saying that more lenient rules can easily help a day run smoother as long as the same logic and sensibility are applied to their implementation and enforcement that you would apply to stricter rules.

In my experience all the no-inside-passing rule does is prevent traffic from flowing. Especially on a tight track.

Maybe a no inside passing at or near the apex of turns rule would make sense. But passing under braking by setting up to the inside, or late apexing and driving out under someone... both of those are simple and common safe passes. In the case of the braking maneuver, you need to get the pass done before the other rider is going to turn in.

There is a very common rider at track days who is just quick enough to be in the way, usually in the intermediate group and on a large displacement CBRGSXRZXRR... they late apex the SHIT out of every corner, starting way outside and swooping in like they are on the street, drive very wide out of the corners, and hammer it in between the corners... without more lenient passing rules this person is impossible to pass for riders of similar speed. And trains of riders all lined up getting frustrated is far more dangerous in my opinion than allowing more passing to be done. This rider, you can talk to them about lines and try to help them (I always do) but often times they are going to ride the way they want to ride. I know you can pit in and look for some empty space... but at a well-attended track day it's going to be an effort in futility... and there is always more than one of "this rider"

Most people make safety claims as the reason for these rules... but most of the multi-bike incidents (of which there are few) I have seen involve a rider crashing and someone else (who was waiting to or about to pass them) being unable to avoid them. At a recent track day I saw this first hand, a very good rider (actually novice racer) was set up to the outside and behind of someone quite a bit slower than them about to out-drive them out of a corner, the slower rider tucked the front and the faster rider couldn't avoid their bike.

I think more lenient passing rules help to minimize these incidents (although I don't see a way this particular incident could have been avoided)

[TTD]

To build upon the post above (without quoting the whole thing)...


I don't know about other trackdays, but for us the no-passing on the inside rule starts at the tip in point.

Passing under braking is allowed and encouraged and I believe is one of the safer places to pass...especially when done early in the braking zone.

For the most part though, we simply tell people that if the passer can get fully in front of the passee before tip in point... then it's a legal pass.

We have even gone further and say now that the no passing area is from tip in point to the apex (or the point where both bikes begin standing up their bikes). So setting up an early exit pass can happen too.

In most places, the tip in to apex section is over in a second or two, so making the pass in that area is silly and needlessly dangerous, in my opinion.

As for riders going down and the following rider hitting them, that's an unfortunate case of track riding regardless of the rules.

I know at our days we stress to either make the pass, or hang back... and for gods sake do NOT watch the other bike's tail section... look past them.

We stress "Do NOT go nose to tail" because of the exact situation Chris describes above.

In fact, being on someone's ass is the WORST way to set up a pass, so there is really no reason to do it.

Bottom line is that passing at a trackday is an artform (other than motoring by someone on the straight). It takes a while to learn how to do it safely and minimize the overall risk.

[Trip]

Screw it, you guys should have a slap people on the ass rule before you can pass them.

[ceo012384]

Originally Posted by TTD

I don't know about other trackdays, but for us the no-passing on the inside rule starts at the tip in point.

...

We have even gone further and say now that the no passing area is from tip in point to the apex (or the point where both bikes begin standing up their bikes). So setting up an early exit pass can happen too.

So you guys allow passing on either side except for tip-in to apex? I didn't know that. It makes sense to me and jives with what I said above.


And about the incident I described, in more detail... especially on a smaller/tighter track, if you pass on the outside you are going to open yourself up to that possibility almost no matter how you pass them. Eric (I'm sure you know him) was not set up on the guys tail, the slower rider just happened to crash at the wrong moment as his initiated his move. This was going up turn 4, so it was a somewhat odd place for the slower rider to tuck the front in the first place. Like you described, just a track incident that can happen regardless of the rules.

Originally Posted by Trip

Screw it, you guys should have a slap people on the ass rule before you can pass them.

I have done this to friends...

[DLIT]

Originally Posted by shmike

This post is the exact reason why inside passing is not allowed for certain groups.

But it still happens.

[OreoGaborio]

Originally Posted by DLIT

But it still happens.

Not sure I quite understand what you're getting at? There's rules/regulations for a lot of things, but they still happen.

I whole heartedly agree that you should hold your line... but your line may be different than someone else's and you should ride accordingly and with a healthy safety margin.

[azoomm]

Originally Posted by Trip

Screw it, you guys should have a slap people on the ass rule before you can pass them.

Yes.

[DLIT]

Originally Posted by OreoGaborio

Not sure I quite understand what you're getting at? There's rules/regulations for a lot of things, but they still happen.

I whole heartedly agree that you should hold your line... but your line may be different than someone else's and you should ride accordingly and with a healthy safety margin.

Keep in mind we're talking about noobs in the noob group. Taking inappropriate lines happens a lot in that group.

[OreoGaborio]

haha... Cheers to that. I spend most of my track days in that group tryin to fix em

Luckily (knocks on wood) I can't even remember the last time we had a bike-to-bike incident that was the result of using poor lines, or if it's even happened. We've had a couple of incidents over the years at our events involving two bikes, but typically it's something like one crashing right in front of the other and the second rider going down while trying to avoid the downed bike/rider.